In our new podcast, Mark Leonard discusses the conclusions he has drawn concerning “the four Cs:” capital, climate, chips, civilizations.

He talks about how Europeans could take inspiration from Chinese ways of thinking, what a new, more holistic approach to European security might prioritize, and what a new artisanship code would look like that would enable them to lean into disruption.

Mark Leonard is a British political scientist, author, and co-founder and director of the European Council on Foreign Relations. His newest book is Surviving Chaos. Geopolitics When the Rules Fail (Polity Press, 2026).

Ferenc Laczó conducted the interview. Lilit Hakobyan edited the audio file.